Perfectly, is Ken’s masterful research study in regards to the bloodlines regarding Llewelyn Fawr and you can Joanna
Just ‘Ellen’s’ term remains a mystery, there is apparently no-you to definitely titled Ellen or Helen, except perhaps an enthusiastic ‘Eleanor’ into the Joanna’s front (Eleanor from Aquitaine, mom out of Joanna’s dad King John)
Hi, men. It is it really is fascinating; the thing i would not possess made available to gain access to this post twenty-5 years in the past once i is actually contrasting and writing Here Be Dragons!
The primary intent behind this workout is to test, by the a look at genealogist’s opinions about them and by contacting particular understood new offer, to decide who had been the mother off Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Is actually she Joanna, partner regarding Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Born circa.1188, died. March 1237) otherwise are she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch from Rhos, mistress away from Llywelyn, produced circa. 1168, passed away??
I’ll follow this having a vacation study towards the you’ll existence away from a good ded Susanna, provided out to Queen Henry 111 just like the a great hostage for the 1228 with her custody getting supplied so you’re able to Sir Nicholas Verdun with his partner Clementia.
The new viewpoints of Genealogists that we have examined are merely you to definitely, feedback, as well as differ significantly. Zero certain research is available in either case, but have to declare that the majority hold to have Gwladus to be the new child of Joanna. This is especially true of genealogists of your own descendants off the brand new De Braose nearest and dearest, even so they ily to-be associated with both Welsh and you can English royal domiciles!
The list following off Llywelyn’s several legitimate and illegitimate college students appears to-be fundamentally recognized from the all genealogists which i features learnt apart from variations more whether or not no. 9 really stayed. This new dates off delivery given below also are debated because of the specific:
- Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, born circa.1199, passed away 1244
- Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, produced circa.1206, passed away 1251
- Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1206? died circa 1253,
- Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1208? died circa 1263,
- Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince of Wales, born circa 1208 (1211?) (second thoughts regarding it day, discover afterwards), passed away 25 March 1246,
- Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1209 passed away 1281.
- Angharad ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1210, died 1257
- Tegwared ap Llywelyn – born circa 1210, it is possible to twin so you can Angharad?
- ‘Helen’, or ‘Susanna’, produced circa 1214? Died 1259?
Discover far conflict along side identity of one’s mothers from these types of youngsters. You will find general contract that only particular pupils from Llywelyn’s e Prince out of Wales and Ellen (Helen) who married (1) John this new Scot, young buck of one’s earl out of Chester and you may (2) Robert de- Quincy. Although thoughts is split along the mothers regarding Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and Susanna, a lot of genealogists We have learned slim with the its mom getting Joanna.
This might be partly with regards to going dates out of delivery because the really as his or her marriage ceremonies to different marcher lords which, one to supposes, might have wanted so you’re able to line-up their homes to this of its neighbour, new Prince regarding Northern Wales with his partner, new queen from England’s daughter. It’s felt that such lords of the March won’t had a whole lot desire or political desire into the marrying away from their sons to the illegitimate daughters from a good Welsh prince which have a beneficial Welsh lady.
About what names of these people, if or not from the Joanna, Tangwystl or someone else, these were all the entitled once members of Llywelyn’s loved ones:
Ken, we have been totally on your obligations
Llywelyn’s mother try called ‘ed ‘Susanna’ regarding Gwynedd. Their paternal grandma try titled ‘Gwladus’. The mother and father regarding their grandmother Susanna, was basically ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and ‘Angharad’ from Flint and you will each other the labels got in order to Llywelyn’s college students. So it Susanna also got a sister called ‘Gwenllian’, an identical identity as the Llywelyn’s great-grandmother.
